S. Berliner, III's sbiii.com ALCo-GE-IR Boxcabs Continuation Page 6 keywords = boxcab EMD Electro motive ALCo GE IR AGEIR American Locomotive Company General Electric Ingersoll Rand oil electric diesel engine rail road 401 100 108 ton CNW C&NW 1000 10011002 1200 Red River Lumber 502

Updated:   20 Feb 2014,  10:00 ET
[Page converted 17 Oct 2011; page created 18 Dec 2000;
    original AT&T Worldnet Website begun 30 May 1996.]
Update info on the top on ALL pages for your convenience.

URL:  http://sbiii.com/boxcabs6.html
[was at "home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/boxcabs6.html"]

S. Berliner, III
Consultant in Ultrasonic Processing
"changing materials with high-intensity sound"

[consultation is on a fee basis]

Technical and Historical Writer, Oral Historian
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Rail, Auto, Air, Ordnance, and Model Enthusiast
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note - The vast bulk of my massive Web presence (over 485 pages) had been hosted by AT&T's WorldNet service since 30 May 1996; they dropped WorldNet service effective 31 Mar 2010 and I have been scrambling to transfer everything.  Everything's saved but all the links have to be changed, mostly by hand.  See my sbiii.com Transfer Page for any updates on this tedious process.


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I-R 60-ton Demo

A new type of locomotive!
Ingersoll-Rand 1925 Demonstrator #9681
(later CNJ #1000)
(ALCo builders photo S-1484 - source uncertain;
possibly from 1980s AAR flyer)

 

 

ALCo-GE-IR BOXCAB

Oil-Electric ("Diesel") Locomotives

Continuation Page 6

(American Locomotive Company - General Electric - Ingersoll-Rand)

(additional text, esp. 100/108-ton)

INDEX to Boxcabs Pages:

note-rt.gif   The primary Boxcabs Index has been moved to a separate page, together with links and credits.

Boxcab Help - A service for boxcab afficionados,
posting reasonable questions (at my sole discretion).

There are now more than seventy-five (75) BOXCAB pages;
see the full INDEX, now on a separate page.

[A new "bugaboo" has reared its ugly head - complexity of organization -
see COMPLEXITY on my main index page.]

  The Boxcabs Index Page.

PAGE INDEX:

This Boxcabs Page 6:
    More ALCo-GE-IR Boxcab Information
(moved from Boxcabs Continuation Page 3 on 18 Dec 00).
    1915 GE Jay Street Connecting RR #3.
    Chicago & Northwestern Boxcabs
(moved from Boxcabs Continuation Page 3 on 18 Dec 00).
    More Chicago & Northwestern Boxcabs (by Tom Wilson)   new (30 May 2013)
    The Red River Lumber Co. #502
(moved from Boxcabs Continuation Page 3 on 18 Dec 00).
    Canadian National Railway's #7750.
    "A", "B", and "F" (and "1" and "2") Ends - Which is Which?
    More Miscellaneous Boxcabs.

On Boxcabs Page 7:
    100/108-Ton ALCo-GE-IR Boxcab Information.


[First of all, I want to credit Bill Russell, Penny Bridge; we seem to be linking back and forth but he has the most compendious site about NY-area railroading,
where most boxcabs lurked, with tons of information.

Second, take a look at Mark Laundry's Yard Limit Diesel Switcher Spotter's and Reference Guide, a site about early diesel switchers, especially a 1994 paper by Benn Coifman on "The Evolution of the Diesel Locomotive in the United States", with an excellent history of the ALCo-GE-IR consortium, as well as McKeen, Westinghouse/Baldwin, Hamilton/EMC/EMD, and Pullman's efforts.]

Since Sep 2000, there had been an extremely-detailed and accurate site focusing exclusively on the earliest history of the ALCo-GE-IR (AGEIR) locos, John F. Campbell's ALCO / General Electric / Ingersoll-Rand (AGEIR) Diesel-Electric Locomotives" site {formerly http://www.execpc.com/~jcampbel/ageir.html}; I heartily recommended it to you!  John had since added a complete roster of all the ALCo-GE-IR boxcab locos built in the first production run, totalling 33 units, from 1925 to 1930, but not the later Bi- and Tri-Power or GE-IR units.  However, I deeply regret the passing on 23 Feb 2005 of John F. Campbell; click here for more information about John.  His work is again available (on this sbiii.com domain) at AGEIR Boxcabs Pages Index {http://sbiii.com/jfcageir/ageirdex.htm} and AGEIR History {http://sbiii.com/jfcageir/ageir.html - main page}, et seq. - see John F. Campbell for more about the re-created site.


More ALCo-GE-IR Boxcab Information

A Continuation of the Text
of the Boxcabs "HOME" Page
and, especially,
the 100/108-ton, twin-engined units.

The second unit built, LIRR #401, was virtually identical to demonstrator #9681 (CNJ #1000) but built longer and equipped with two I-R 300-hp engines.

While generally referred to as 100-tonners, they were mostly actually 108-tons.

In my listing of early predecessor units on the main Boxcabs page, I seem to have overlooked a very significant early locomotive that Jay Bendersky says was "considered by many to be the prototype for the age of dieselization that was to follow".  This was the Jay Street Connecting Railroad's 1915 GE 45-ton gasoline-engined center-cum-boxcab #3.  She was sort of like the U.S.S. Monitor, "a cheesebox on a raft", in that she was neither fish nor fowl, having a 175HP gasoline engine in a teensy cab sitting all alone on a big flat chassis, so she was either a center cab, as Bendersky calls her, or a boxcab with huge platforms on either end.  Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce; I'll compromise and dub her another of my "honorary" boxcabs.  She is shown in a Harold Fagerberg photo, taken 19 Oct 48 (when she was already 33 years old) at the Jay Street enginehouse, on page 10 of Bendersky's 1988 "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways - A Pictorial Journey".  Jay (Bendersky, not the street) notes that her cab was removed and her guts stripped out and the chassis converted to a float reach car shortly after the photo was taken (shades of one of the other early boxcabs* - I've forgotten which - ah, ingnominous fate!).

[* - I'd erroneously claimed that fate for PRR #10001/LIRR #323 electric boxcab, Phoebe, but my memory picked up on the flat car that accompanied Phoebe on the LI, carrying compressors and equipped with third rail shoes and cables so it could span third rail gaps; it sure looks like a reach car (I guess you'd call it a "span" car), and that's what stuck in my mind.]


Chicago & Northwestern Boxcabs

Don Ross has a full page on the Chicago & Northwestern's boxcabs.  "C&NW was an early user of diesels.  They purchased 3 box cab Ingersoll Rand-Alco-General Electric 300 HP units and one 600 HP unit which was an Ingersoll Rand-General Electric.  These ran for many years until the middle 1950s."  All are pictured.  #1000 "was built 4/1926 with Alco construction number 66679 and General Electric number 10023.  It was scrapped in March, 1956."  #1001 "was built 10/19/1926 with construction numbers 66753 and 10133.  It was retired February, 1956."  #1002 "was built 4/19/1927 with construction numbers 66755 and 10135.  It was retired in May, 1957 and scrapped the next month."  #1200 "was built 8/1930 with General Electric construction number 11241.  It was scrapped in June, 1957".  Here they are:

cnw1000

cnw1001

cnw1002

cnw1200

  Images courtesy of Don Ross
and these are only thumbnails!
Click on the images for 170-190Mb full images!

Per ModelTec Magazine of August 1987 (see bibliography), page 9, #1200 was the last GE boxcab with I-R engines.

Now, as a segué into "A" and "F" ends (following), here is a shot that John Campbell was kind enough to send; the "front view image is of AGEIR built Chicago & North Western #1000... It was the first 60 ton unit built with end doors and the last unit to use the early style roof radiators":

C&NW 1000 Front CNJ #1000 105

C&NW #1000 - front (left) / CNJ #1000 - front (right)
(left photo courtesy of and © by J. F. Campbell - all rights reserved)
(right cropped from photo taken 09 Jun 1999 by and copyright © 1999 S. Berliner, III and
copyright © 1999 B&O Railroad Museum) - all rights reserved)
[Thumbnailed images - click on pictures for higher-resolution images]

Other than the obvious change from no end doors, with the requisite relocation of the headlight and numerous handrail changes, the details that pop out at one! Compare this unusual shot on the left with the front view I took of the CNJ #1000 in the B&O Museum on the right.  Look at how the front windows changed and how narrow the fireman's became!

Then, look at those two circular plates with four bolts seen directly above the inner handrail/cut-lever posts.  I sure never noticed any such before.

Note also the overlapping belt line on the newer unit, showing the change from full-height body panels to half-height.

I also get a feeling that each customer wanted different draft gear!  Just check the wild variety of coupler mounting arrangements on these pages.

John thought some of us would find it of interest...  Perhaps.  :·)

It struck me as funny that they posed a double-ended loco on a turntable; perfectly reasonable and understandable, but still funny.  {Say!  Maybe that's a transfer table!  Besides, #1000 is INSIDE a 360° roundhouse!}

Here's another Don Ross photo (by Tom Wilson), showing C&NW #1200 even better, three years later, with the winterization hatch over the engineer's side window and the single fireman's side window at the other end, PLUS note the clear "A" side and "F" and "NO. 1" end markings:

C&NW
1200 TW

This loco, Red River Lumber #502, and Foley Bros. #110-1 are virtually identical.  [Coverage of RRL #502 follows more on the C&NW boxcabs.]   rev (30 May 2013)


More Chicago & Northwestern Boxcabs
    (by Tom Wilson)

That same Tom Wilson noted as the source of C&NW boxcab photos by Don Ross (above), and John Campbell, having noted my reconstruction efforts on John Campbell's AGEIR web site, contacted me on 25 Feb 2013.  He has shots of C&NW 1000, 1002, and 1200. as well as "a good B&W view of 1001 which Fred Ziebe took in Chicago".  Tom "took the others in Green Bay, Wisconsin, when he was a teen (both he and Fred Ziebe were still with us as of that writing).  All pictures are reproduced here as sent, duplicates or not, and captioned by Tom:   new (30 May 2013)

TW/CNW#1002
(photo by, courtesy of, and © T. Wilson - all rights reserved)
[click on thumbnailed picture for higher-resolution image]

C&NW 1002 at Green Bay in 1955. 616 Kodak Monitor camera.
I shared this with Mr Campbell years ago and he used it in his internet article on the AGEIR units.

TW/CNW#1200
(photo by, courtesy of, and © T. Wilson - all rights reserved)
[click on thumbnailed picture for higher-resolution image]

CNW 1200 Green Bay, WI 1955 Wilson.  Taken later in 1955 than 1002.
Next to the roundhouse. 616 Kodak Monitor Verichrome film

TW/CNW#1000
(photo by, courtesy of, and © T. Wilson - all rights reserved)
[click on thumbnailed picture for higher-resolution image]

CNW 1000 Green Bay 1954 Wilson.  At 600 dpi.

This unit and the 1002 were used in their late yars around the east central Wisconsin area.  I saw 1000 in Neenah and Menasha, WI, switching the paper mills in 1953.  I have a pic of 1002 in Sheboygan in 1951.  1000 was taken out of service and sat among the reeds near the roundhouse in Green Bay from 1954 on to scrap in 1957.  1002 kept going.  As photoed here 1000 needed more exposure because the side free of obstruction was generally in the shade.  The Vandals and Visigoths have gotten to 1000 in my pic.  The 1001 worked the Merchandise Mart area in Chicago for years.

TW/CNW#1002
(photo by, courtesy of, and © T. Wilson - all rights reserved)
[click on thumbnailed picture for higher-resolution image]

CNW 1002 Green Bay 1955 WILSON pic.
John Campbell may have used this shots of mine.  600dpi off an 8x10 photo.

TW/CNW#1000
(photo by, courtesy of, and © T. Wilson - all rights reserved)
[click on thumbnailed picture for higher-resolution image]

CNW 1000 Green Bay 1954   Wilson pic.
Before most of the Vandals and Visigoths got to it.

Thanks, Tom, for all your kindness and courtesy!


The Red River Lumber #502

{Let me note here that today's Red River Paper Company
is NOT affiliated in any way with the old The Red River Lumber Co.
and express my appreciation for their so advising 07 Feb 2001.}

The Red River Lumber #502 was only the second 100-tonner, the twelfth oil-electric built, and the first (and almost last) in logging service (it gave quite a bit of trouble) and the first in the Pacific Northwest.  She came with the usual two 300-hp I-R engines but was very different from the first 100-tonner, LIRR #401; she had a riveted frame (or had her side sill channels reversed), with rivet heads outboard at the extreme width of the body, as opposed to #401's inboard sill channel webs and outboard flanges.  #502 had closed end sills with rectangular end plates, whereas #401 had open end sills with access holes and a deeper section at the draft gear.  #502 came with a flat roof and flat radiator tubing on long radiators at each end, while #401 came with a rounded roof cross-section and the same tubing curved to match the roof line and two radiators at each end, matching those single ones on the first 60-tonners.  In addition, while both had ladders centered on each side, #502's were recessed into the car body, whereas #401 had the grab irons external to flush body sides.  #502 also had vertically-rounded roof ends, with top mounted headlights and twin sand boxes* like all end door models, as opposed to #401's end brows and under-brow headlight position with single sand box* of the first models without end dooors.  #502 also was the first 100-tonner with rounded ends with end doors.  Oddly, TRRLCo had no #500 or #501 (not even a 400-series).  She was used on line-hauls instead of heavy switching and was not well-suited to the task; she lasted 14 years and was outlived by her steam colleagues.  (Information on #502 from Pages 136-138 and 286 of Hanft's book.)

[* - I referred erroneously above to "step-plates" on the ends;
they are, in fact, cast "sand boxes".]

#502 was ordered from ALCo-GE-IR in January 1926; engineer Robert B. Boyd went to Schenectady, New York, in June to study the new loco.  It carried GE serial number 10029 and ALCo s/n 66677, and was later sold to Armco Steel of Middletown, Ohio, in 1940 as their #E103, and scrapped in 1962.  #502 was listed as 106 tons (212,000#, NOT 108 tons).  In spite of giving a lot of trouble, she inspired The Red River to build their own diesel a year later (see Other Boxcabs).

Here, thanks to Jim Johnson (21 Sep 2001) is a copy of an original print of #502 in logging service in 1925 (note the handwritten misspelling - "Deisel"):

{That photo has vanished - I can't find a trace of it!}

That #402/2, the second 100-tonner, was almost identical to Red River Lumber Co. #502, which, until 17 Apr 2000, I could not picture here; thanks to Jim Bryant of Nevada Rails, here is RRL #502:

RRL #502 hauling logs RRL #502 being sold
Photos courtesy of James B. Bryant

The logging shot (left) is apparently a crop of an even larger one (perhaps the one Jim Johnson sent?) - the notation deoes not appear now.  Although no dates or locations are given, Jim Bryant writes that, "the fellow in the door of the {right} photo is from the steel company, which is buying the No. 502".  Well, we know from Marre that she became Armco #E103; now all I have to do is find out when.

Even better yet, when re-loading these pictures to this page, I noticed for the first time those distinctive (and apparently empty) UP-style number boards on the outer corners of the roof, with their separate number pockets!

Hamley (1970, see bibliography) notes that all 100-ton units built after LIRR #401, starting with LIRR #402, were six feet (6' or 1.83m) shorter.

(thanks to Russell Schoof 11 Dec 00 for pointing this out to me.)

For more on the only surviving 100-ton (nominal - actually 108-ton) oil-electric boxcab, Foley Bros. #110-1, now preserved at the Feather River Rail Society's Portola museum, click here.


CNR #7750

A later one-off twin-engined boxcab was apparently assembled from ALCo-GE-IR components by the Candian National Railway; it is a bit of a hybrid, having flat ends like LIRR #401 but end platforms and doors, and grillwork in the center sides, like all other 108-tonners.  #7750 was rated at 117 tons and was placed in operation in Sep 1932, serving in Montréal.

CNRy #7750
(Photo ca. 1932, cropped from TRAIN SHED CYCLOPEDIA No. 43)

Note that #7750 appears to have weather cab enclosures (bay windows) on both the driver's and "fireman's" windows (evidenced by the tiny vertical panes in front of and behind the regular panes.

However, an almost-identical photo in Marre (1995, page 429) clearly shows it without an enclosure, whil(e)(st) the following (below) one shows such an enclosure on the fireman's side window but not on the engineer's:

[The following two photographs of #7750 are from the collection of the Canada Science and Technology Museum at Railways > Historic CN 1919-1963 > Locomotives and Equipment]:

CNRy #7750 side

CNRy #7750 front
(photos property of, and reproduced here by permission of,
the Canada Science and Technology Museum - all rights reserved to the Museum.
These images may NOT be copied or reproduced without specific, prior, written permission of CSTM.)
.
{CSTM captions to follow}
Image Nos.: CN001446 and CN001447, CSTMC/CN Collection"

The weather enclosure doesn't show on that front view, either.

Puzzlement - Marre, on page 429 in 1995, states that this loco is a SINGLE-engined unit, built at CNR's Montréal shops in 1932 "similar to the GE Ingersoll-Rand 300-hp 60-tonners marketed in the U. S." and that the engine {singular} was an I-R 10 x 12 from Candian Ingersoll-Rand at Sherbrooke, Québec, and that the electricals were from Canadian GE!  It would appear the the estimable Louis goofed on this one.

Note also that, unlike most ALCo-GE-IR 60-ton units and LIRR #401, the "fireman's" side window is single (presumably vertical-sliding), not the standard double horizontal-sliding.  What is so fascinating to me is that I now find that this is true for nearly all 108-ton units!  I never noticed this before and there it is, that same way, on the C&NW #1200 (above) and on Foley Bros. #110-1, the only twin-engined survivor:

cnw1200 crop 110-1 Portola 14 crop
(13 Aug 1998 photo by and © S. Berliner, III 1998, 2002 - all rights reserved)
[cropped and enhanced]

Actually, #1002 in that same C&NW set above shows the "normal" 60-ton end-door window arrangement perfectly
(it must have been a hot day):

cnw1002
Cropped from image courtesy of Don Ross


"A", "B", and "F" (and "1" and "2") Ends - Which is Which?

How does one differentiate one end from the other on supposedly "double-ended" locos?  They weren't actually longitudinally symmetrical (whew - quite a phrase!).  For a start, see the general "dissertation" on "A", "B", and "F" (and "1" and "2") ends on my RR page 2.  Then, simply keep in mind that most, if not all, AGEIR and GEIR boxcab locos had the brakestand ("B" end) at the "rear", away from the "F" end.

Basically "A" = "F" = "1" and "B" = "2", but for more on this and on the weighty matter of which end has the stacks closer to the end (only applicable to single-engined units - i.e. the original 60-tonners), see Note 3. of the Boxcab Modeling Notes on my Boxcab Modeling page.

Also, there are photos of the right rear of CNJ #1000 showing the brake wheel through the right rear window, and a photo of the brakestand itself from inside the left rear door, on the CNJ #1000 page and succeding detail photo pages (taken by special permission, of course) and here they are:

CNJ #1000 108 crop CNJ #1000 602 crop CNJ #1000 601 crop
108 photo (taken 09 Jun 1999) copyright © 1999, 2002 S. Berliner, III* - all rights reserved;
601 and 602 photos (taken 19 Jul 2001) copyright © 2001, 2002 S. Berliner, III* - all rights reserved
[cropped and enhanced]

* - SPECIAL COPYRIGHT NOTICE:  Please be advised that the images shown above (photos 108, 601, and 602) are reproduced here by special permission of the B&O Railroad Museum and may NOT be reproduced further in any form, or for any purpose, without prior written permission of the photographer, S. Berliner, III, AND of the B&O Railroad Museum.

See also the Tom Wilson photo of #1200, above.

From the Foley Bros. #110-1 photo page, this further elucidation about end and side conventions ; the front of the loco is the "F1" end and the rear (where the brakestand is located) is the "2" end, so the "right" side is the "A" side or right looking from "2" to "F1" and the "left" side is the "B" side or left looking from "2" to "F1":

Boxcab Conventions
(05 Aug 2002 sketch, rev. 16 May 04, by and © S. Berliner, III 2002, 2004 - all rights reserved)

Oh, no, Mr. ED!  C&NW #1200 has the "A" and "B" side stencils reversed!  Back to the drawing board!


For a personal recollection of ARMCO units, see the I-R Boxcabs page.


More Miscellaneous Boxcabs

Art Huneke was kind enough (his normal way) to send an unprovenanced photo of Lehigh Valley boxcab locomotive #116 {?} and crew; here's a crop from a 211/16" x 4½" bordered photo:

LV 116?
(photo courtesy of A. Huneke)

Can anyone tell us anything about this loco; there's no indication of whether it's a gas-electric or oil-electric but we can be reasonably certain that the bull leaning so nonchalantly on the handrail isn't giving the engineer a speeding ticket!   Look at that uncharacteristic flat roof-line, vertical cooling coil, and box radiators; that's a St. Louis Car Company body  They built ten very similar 800HP units for the Rock Island ca. 1929-30 (#9005 and 9014), with twin #148 400HP distiillate engines and the same dual "blown" radiators at each end:

RI9011 RI9012?
RI #9011  -   RI #9012? (Photos from TRAIN SHED CYCLOPEDIA #20)
[Thumbnailed images - click on photos for larger images]

John Campbell came though nobly; Lehigh Valley #116 (1st - later renumbered Lehigh Valley #76) was built by EMC in the mid-1930s as a gas-electric with a Winton Model 148 air-started 400HP gasoline engine (the same power plant as used on RI #9005 - 9014) and used 4-HM 833C traction motors.  After construction, this unit demonstrated for EMC as #464 from mid-1930 to mid-1931 and then was sold to the Lehigh Valley.  It was assigned to either New Jersey or the Bronx for 21 years prior to being taken out of service.  It never received diesel power.  The opposite side of the loco was a little "busier" with two cab doors.

Brian Norden chimed in with this from the R&LHS Lehigh Valley roster published in its Bulletin No. 126 of April 1972:

First Second Notes -
Road Road Builder Constr. ex-demo
Number Number* of Record Year Disposition number
115 75 Electro-Motive 1930 scrapped 3/53 463
116 76 Electro-Motive 1930 scrapped 3/53 464
* - renumbered 1940.

Kirkland says that the bodies were built by St. Louis and completed in August 1930.  These two and #465 were built as demonstrators and used the construction numbers as road numbers.  #465 eventually went to the Steelton & Highspire (Harrisburg, PA) as their #30.

Thanks, Brian!

[See also Boxcabs B&O #50 and EMD pages.]

Those TRAIN SHED Rock Island unit photos were accompanied by a drawing which I scanned, split up, and post here - side, plan, and front and rear views:

RI9Kside

RI9Kplan

RI9Kfront RI9Kfront
(Drawings from TRAIN SHED CYCLOPEDIA #20)


More to follow, including more detailed dimensions, pictures and more links (that might even work!).  At least, I finally found my long-lost LIRR AA-2 Class drawing!



LEGACY

  What happens to all this when I DIE or (heaven forfend!) lose interest?  See LEGACY.


There are now more than seventy-five (75) BOXCAB pages;
see the full INDEX, now on a separate page.


COPYRIGHT NOTICE

See Copyright Notice on primary home page.



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prevpage.gif subjndex.gif frstpage.gif nextpage.gif
To tour the Boxcabs pages in sequence, the arrows take you from the Boxcabs index page to the first Boxcabs page, to continuation pages 1 and up, then 100-tonner LIRR #401 and her sisters, survivor boxcabs (with map) and survivor notes, survivor CNJ #1000 (the very first), Ingersoll-Rand boxcabs (with instruction manual), other (non-ALCo/GE/I-R) boxcabs, Baldwin-Westinghouse boxcabs, odd boxcabs, and finally model boxcabs.



© Copyright S. Berliner, III - 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014  - all rights reserved.


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