S. Berliner, III's sbiii.com Long Island Motor Parkway Queens Page keywords = Long Island Motor Parkway Vanderbilt Queens 199 Peck Underhill Horace Harding Cunningham Alley pond park toll road limited access highway boulevard automotive auto car truck car history Miller

Updated:   20 Feb 2011, 20:45  ET
[Page created 28 Apr 2001; converted 22 Nov 2010;

    original AT&T Worldnet Website begun 30 May 1996.]
Update info on the top on ALL pages for your convenience.

URL:  http://sbiii.com/limp-qns.html
[was at "home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/limp-qns.html"]

S. Berliner, III
Consultant in Ultrasonic Processing
"changing materials with high-intensity sound"

[consultation is on a fee basis]

Technical and Historical Writer, Oral Historian
Popularizer of Science and Technology
Rail, Auto, Air, Ordnance, and Model Enthusiast
Light-weight Linguist, Lay Minister, and Putative Philosopher



note - The vast bulk of my massive Web presence (over 485 pages) had been hosted by AT&T's WorldNet service since 30 May 1996; they dropped WorldNet effective 31 Mar 2010 and I am scrambling to transfer everything.  Everything's saved but all the links have to be changed, mostly by hand.  See my sbiii.com Transfer Page for any updates on this tedious process.


S. Berliner, III's

sbiii.com

Long Island Motor Parkway
Queens Page

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{and these are only thumbnails, at that!
Many images lost - see PLEASE NOTE.}
Missing image links deleted -   new.gif (30 Jul 07)


LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY

a.k.a. Vanderbilt Motor Parkway

(and related matters)

[in Queens County]

Motor Parkway Panel Logo

To save space on this page, I refer you to the LIMP Index Page.


PAGE INDEX

note-rt.gif  The index on this page has been truncated to save page space; see the LIMP Index on the page preceding the main LIMP page.

On the main LIMP page:

    HISTORY OF THE LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY,
        now continued on the LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY HISTORY page, and
        on the LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY HISTORY page 2.

On Continuation Page 0:

    LIMP POSTS (and reinforced concrete).
    LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY TIMELINE.
    LINKS to the LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY.
    LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY BIBLIOGRAPHY.

On Continuation Page 1A:

    LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY TODAY.
    LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY BRIDGES.
    LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY at confluence
        of Marcus/Lakeville/NSParkway.

On Continuation Page 2:

    More on the Long Island Motor Parkway.
    Views of the Long Island Motor Parkway Today.
    I. U. Willets Road Fragment.
    Roslyn Road Fragment.
    Bridge at Old Bethpage Village Restoration.
    Horace Harding (of Boulevard fame).
    Open LIMP Matters - Questions and Speculations.

On Continuation Page 3:

    Crossings from Roslyn Road to the Maxess Road Bridge.

On Continuation Page 4:

    Old Courthouse Road Bridge, New Hyde Park.
    Garden City Toll Lodge.
    Crossings Continued - Maxess/Duryea Road Bridge.
    More on Duryea Road Crossing.

    On Continuation Page 5:

    LI MOTOR PARKWAY SPURS.
    PERSONAL LI MOTOR PARKWAY APOCRYPHA,
       and now continued on the LIMP Apocrypha Page.
    LEVITTOWN GRANDSTAND AREA.
    DEAD MAN'S CURVE REDIVIVUS.

On Continuation Page 6:

    LI MOTOR PARKWAY at WlLLISTON/ALBERTSON/SEARINGTOWN.
    Dubious Artifact at NSP/NHP Road.
    Queens Vignettes.

On Continuation Page 7:

    OLD BETHPAGE AREA Update.
    ROUTE 110 SAND PITS AREA Update.

On Continuation Page 8:

    North Hills.
    Mineola-Carle Place.

On Continuation Page 9:

    LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY at confluence
        of Marcus/Lakeville/NSParkway, continued,
        with Great Neck Toll Lodge.

On Continuation Page 10:

    Additional WILLISTON-NEW HYDE PARK ROAD Documentation.
    Bronx River Parkway.

On Continuation Page 11:

    1941 Queens Aerial Photos.

On this Queens Page:

    Western Terminus
        (193rd-199th St./Peck Av./Underhill Blvd./Horace Harding Blvd./LIE).
    193rd St. Controversy.   new (20 Feb 2011)

On Queens Continuation Page 1:

    Western Terminus Details.
    Alley Pond and Environs

On Queens Continuation Page 2:

    Fresh Meadows Ballfields and Theater

On the Suffolk Page:

    Eastern Terminus (Lake Ronkonkoma).


This is yet another new (28 Apr 01) page to cover additional information and photographs of this interesting old highway; see also my Automotive, Chrysler, Dudgeon (really!), Mercedes, and SS and JAGUAR car pages and other related pages.


A Motor Parkway Panel has been convened to keep the LIMP alive in situ and in minds and museums.

There is also a lot of automotive material on my ORDNANCE and HISTORY pages.

Also, if you like automotive history, see the links on the Automotive page.


RoW = Right-of-Way.


LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY

Queens County


WESTERN TERMINUS

of the

LONG ISLAND MOTOR PARKWAY

in the vicinity of

193th-199th Street area, Peck Avenue and Underhill Boulevard, and
Horace Harding Boulevard (and today's Long island Expressway).

[I have re-revised this to show 193rd-199th Streets - 199th Street still exists as a landmark;
195th Street, the actual@ end, is long gone (at HHB/LIE, that is).  The entry/exit ramps paralleled HHB and actually extended to 193rd Street.]

@ - see below re a controversy over the actual end (I say it was 193rd Street).   new (20 Feb 2011)

On 26 Apr 01, I took my digital camera in to LaGuardia Airport's Marine Air Terminal and stopped on the way home at the site of the western end of the Motor Parkway.  Originally starting near the Queens-Nassau border, the Parkway was extended westward, ending up in 1926 at the confluence of 199th Street, Peck Avenue and Underhill Boulevard, and Horace Harding Boulevard.  Pretty well obliterated at that spot by the construction of the Long island Expressway (I-495 #), all four roads still exist, with Horace Harding Boulevard being the north and south service roads of the LIE.

The left picture (0), looking ENE, show the pedestrian overpass that runs NNW from the approximate end of the LIMP RoW across HHB and the LIE to the SE end of the Kissena Corridor, running NW between Peck and Underhill.  It must be reiterated here that the RoW in the Corridor is NOT that of the LIMP!  It was the RoW of the Central RR of LI, running from Flushing down to Creedmoor and beyond, and there may have been a trolley line there later and many artifacts which remain which clearly appear to be LIMP artifacts are, in fact, not but are left from the RR/trolley line.  The right picture (1) shows the Peck Avenue street sign on the south side of HHB, looking E:

199th St/HH 0-1 (All photos taken 26 Apr 01 by and © 2001 S. Berliner, III - all rights reserved)
[Thumbnail images; click on the pictures for larger images.]

The left picture (2), below, was taken half-way to the overpass, standing on a small island where Peck dead ends at the south side of HHB (it continues again on the north side, as does Underhill), and then a shot (3) looking NE up at the S end of the footbbridge from the base of the slope:

199th St/HH 2-3 [Thumbnail images; click on the pictures for larger images.]

This is a view (4) N over the footbridge and then (5) looking S away from it along what appears to be (but isn't) LIMP RoW:

199th St/HH 4-5 [Thumbnail images; click on the pictures for larger images.]

What the right-hand picture, above IS is the Bike Path.  Now we move further down the path to the SE (6) and then swing left to look ESE (7) with HHB in the left background:

199th St/HH 6-7 [Thumbnail images; click on the pictures for larger images.]

Walking down the path towards the schoolyard (8), there's an odd jog and children playing and the path disappears off into the woods, so I stopped there and turned around to take the last picture (9) facing uphill WNW towards the overpass:

199th St/HH 8-9 (All photos taken 26 Apr 01 by and © 2001 S. Berliner, III - all rights reserved)
[Thumbnail images; click on the pictures for larger images.]

HOWEVER - - - Al Velocci, Motor Parkway Panel member and LIMP researcher par excellence, advises that the LIMP actually bent westward at this spot and ended at 195th Street.  This was because there had to be an expensive bridge crossing the railroad down by Hempstead Turnpike and Vanderbilt did not want another; although there was no actual RR there, the space between Peck and Underhill was a RR RoW.  So, instead, property was acquired so that the LIMP RoW could swing northwesterly inside the arc of the Peck/HHB intersection and still have room for the entry/exit ramps.  Panel Member Fred Hadley reminded me that there was no toll booth here; the entry was at grade and one proceeded inside the guard railings to the Hillside Toll Lodge at Rocky Hill Road (Springfield Boulevard), some 2½ miles easterly.  Interestingly, the Hillside Toll Lodge was not near Hillside Avenue but Hillside Avenue was the feeder road from Queens Boulevard that was the closest to the old Toll Lodge before the 1926 western expansion  There was a kiosk in the entry at Nassau Boulevard (HHB) (at least, in 1938) but the attendant did not take the tolls there, as noted; see Western Terminus Details on Queens page 1, for more on the actual entry point.


193rd St. Controversy

In spite of determined opposition from LIMP experts, I still maintain that the actual western end of the LIMP was at 193rd Street!  I have (or had) a set of old photos (ca. 1940?) that clearly showed a (concrete?) apron extending along the south verge of Horace Harding Boulevard from 195th Street westward to 193rd Street.  Not being able to locate these photos, I am unable to press my case but I am reasonably convinced I recall this correctly.  Should I ever find them, I will be vindicated but, if I am proven wrong, does anyone have a good recipe for crow?   new (20 Feb 2011)


AERIAL PHOTO
of the Peck/LIMP area and the
NHT@, 73rd Ave., and FLB Bridges!

Panel Member Jeff Saltzman turned up an interesting aerial photo from the '40s*, showing both the LIMP 73rd Avenue bridge (upper middle right) and another one (in the upper left) nearly at HHB [now apparently incorrectly identified as the North Hempstead Turnpike@ (Booth Memorial Avenue+) bridge].  I wasn't happy with the exact location here, asked for help, and got it in spades!  We are looking E and that's Cunningham Park at the top, Francis Lewis Boulevard just beyond the LIMP RoW, and the Francis Lewis overpass (NOT the GCP as I had guessed) in the upper far right.  Panelist Mitch Kaften annotated Jeff's fantastic photo with overlay captions indentifying most major features; because it is so big (222Kb+), I can not show it here effectively (the captions are too small to read), but here it is as a thumbnail anyway, just so you have an idea of on what you will be clicking:

Fresh Meadows late '40s [Thumbnail image; click on the picture for much larger image.]

[The white line was apparently already drawn on the print
and appears to have nothing to do with the LIMP.]

The Fresh Meadows bridge in question, enlarged greatly; notice how it is angled to the NW, just as Al V. said it was:

Fresh Meadows Bridge (06 May 01 enlargement by S. Berliner, III)

I wondered if the big ditch at the savaged (left) end of the bridge mightn't be the excavation for the LIE (no - too far south).  If we assume that the light-colored area in the near left is LIE construction (dirt) and that FLB is concrete, then the trace beyond the bridge and FLB could well be HHB in blacktop (but it's NOT - it's the NHT@ - maybe).  That would put the western end of the LIMP north of HHB, and it didn't make it that far north, as we shall see.

* - This photo was supposedly from the '50s but Panel Associate Mitch Kaften, who lived there then, advises it had to have been taken in the late '40s because "Fresh Meadows was finished in about 1948, and this shot shows it in some state of construction.  I believe you can still see the old Fresh Meadows Country Club clubhouse just to the right of the more distant of the pair of 13-story apartment buildings at the bottom of the photo."

Not only did Mitch redate this photo for us, he advised that the photo "does not show the Horace Harding bridge.  Horace Harding is further to the left, out of view.  The bridge on the left is an intermediate one.  This confirms my memory of at least three bridges in line, including the 73rd Avenue one.  This middle bridge looks to me to be just north of where the LIMP/bike path currently ends, at the "elbow" of Peck Avenue and 199th Street, which is either 67th Avenue or maybe even 65th Avenue (hard to tell because there is no longer any 65th Avenue).  The third bridge was over North Hempstead Turnpike@, which is still south of Horace Harding Boulevard, and would support Al Velocci's contention that the LIMP ended at HHB (which I agree with).  I kept hoping that if I rammed my mouse to the left enough times, HHB would come into view, but no luck."

[One can but heartily sympathize with Mitch - oh, for an extension of the view to the left (W) [ah, but see below!]!  As I was reminded by Brad Cetron, we can always dig into www.Terraserver.microsoft.com.  This site has satellite images and aerial photographs taken by the US Geological Survey and allows you to zoom from 64 meters to 1 meter which presents a fairly detailed view." - Thanks for the reminder, Brad.]

Western Terminus - labelled (Photo courtesy J. Saltzman, 06 May 01, labelled by M. Kaften)
[Thumbnail image; click on the picture for much larger image.]
{I did doctor three of the captions for maximum clarity.}

Mere words are inadequate to thank Jeff and Mitch sufficently!

@ - The North Hempstead Turnpike to which Mitch refers is NOT the one most of us know as Northern Boulevard, Route 25A; rather it is an old name for (in Mitch's words) "Booth Memorial Avenue - it now ends on the north side of Horace Harding, but years ago it diagonally crossed Horace Harding at about 188th Street, and ended at Cross Island Boulevard (now called Francis Lewis Boulevard).  You can even check your Van Nostrand 1930 map of Fresh Meadows ... the tail end of the road is on the lower mid left of the map ... right under the word 'Horace' you will see the word 'Hempstead'."  Actually, Panel Member Steve Anderson has the NHT clear as a bell (NOT the boulevard of that name) on his 1941 Queens map, running from Flushing Meadows Park ESE to the northern half of Cunningham Park, as well as Rocky Hill Road, the NWerly continuation of Springfield Boulevard from World's Fair Boulevard (25B - now Horace Harding) to Francis Lewis, where it continues as 27th Avenue).  Steve's 1941 maps of LI are exceedingly odd in that there is absolutely no trace of the LIMP as such, not even between Commack and Ronkonkoma (Moses maps?)!  On the Queens map, you can see where the LIMP had to have been in two spots; there are two faint lines which are the SE boundary of Item 42 (the Deepdale CC) and the SW and S boundaries of Item 66 (the Links CC) {Items 50 and 87 on the Nassau map}.

[Ah, Mitch; you're a gem!]

This is another project the Panel should undertake; a list of LIMP-related road and place name equivalencies (and pitfalls).  I started a short set at Road Names.

+ - Booth Memorial Avenue bugs

These Panelists, Associates, and other LIMPers are simply fantastic people!  I asked Jeff Saltzman if there was any possible way he could squeeze higher resolution and more coverage out of that late-'40s aerial view of the 199th Street/Francis Lewis Boulevard shot and, instead of telling me where to get off, he rescanned the upper (E) portion at twice the resolution and with further coverage to the S; unfortunately, there simply isn't any image beyond the left (N) margin, where 193rd Street and HHB hide.  The photo was in the brochure of the realtor which managed the FM complex (defined by the white line) and was not very clear to start with; the enhanced image is the one shown above.

{missing image}

On the extended right margin, you can easily make out Union Turnpike, with parking lots and playing fields of Cunningham Park just beyond.


I had shown a shot Mitch sent, here, taken from the N railing of the LIMP on the 73rd Avenue bridge in 1941, but there is also a marked-up copy and a shot facing S, so it's all been moved/posted to a new LIMP Queens page 3.


20 May 01 - Well, if Jeff and Mitch are gems, what about Panel Member Fred Hadley, who cometh before us with a ca. 1938-40 aerial survey photo of the actual Western Terminus!  Ta, ra!  Not content with that, he then redid it with labels:

[This is NOT the noted shot but, until I can identify and restore all of them, will have to do]

Western Terminus
(Photo courtesy of F. Hadley, 24 Feb 04)
[Thumbnail image; click on the picture for much larger image.]

Western Terminus (Photo courtesy of F. Hadley, 19 May 01)
[Thumbnail image; click on the picture for much larger image.]

The terminus is to the upper left (W) of the photogrammetric index "+" mark.

For those who might not be 100% sure of their "ground", here is an index:

HCT - Hollis Court (Boulevard).
FMCC - Fresh Meadow Country Club.
CIP - Cross Island Boulevard (not the Parkway!); it's a different road, Francis Lewis Boulevard now.
HILLSIDE PARK EXTENSION - precursor of Cunningham Park; the diagonal road should be Underhill Boulevard#.
NHTPK - that other North Hempstead Turnpike (Booth Memorial Avenue - @, above).
HHB - Horace Harding Boulevard (no fair - you guessed!).
LIMP - I trust we already know all about this one!

Fred also sent along an enlargement; it's lost, so I made up these two:

Western Terminus detail x1 Western Terminus detail x2
(Enlargements of photo courtesy of F. Hadley, 19 May 01)

Fred identified the diagonal white blob in the "V" between the N side of the LIMP RoW and the S side of HHB as most likely the sign for the LIMP, with it's shadow reaching to the upper right almost to HHB.

If anyone knows precisely how to identify the objects on the blow-up, please advise (no guesses, thank you).

Of course, that doesn't stop me from offering my opinion that this shot shows the Nassau Boulevard (HHB) Toll Booth, which I have outlined and noted [TB?] on an even further enlargement (skirting pixellation):

Western Terminus Toill Booth?
(17 Mar 04 enlargement of photo courtesy of F. Hadley, 19 May 01)

Again, not content with "just" this, Fred also sent along this 1939{?} aerial shot of the Glen Oaks Country Club golf course, which was Willie K's estate before 1923; the LIMP ran along the SE boundary (bottom in this view):

Western Terminus (Photo courtesy of F. Hadley, 19 May 01)
[Thumbnail image; click on the picture for much larger image.]

I hate to admit it but I was a bit lost here and asked for guidance; the NSP intersection, which obviously is the one at Little Neck Parkway, just didn't look quite right (even for 1939), although Marcus Avenue is quite clear under (S) the NSP and Cullman Avenue is also clear in the upper left (NW).  The ramps don't match my recollection (I first drove up there in 1950) or my 1966 Hagstrom's and LNP sort of vanishes to the SW; just how heavy could the foliage have been?

The beat goes on!  Fred knows me too well (and I deserve this); he asks if the pictures were taken from a "bLIMP"?  Since, strictly and historically speaking, that would means a British airship, type B, Limp, I can reasonably assume not!  A Goodyear gasbag?  Maybe.  (Lotsa gasbags around the LIMP!)

Fred supplied us (24 May 01) with a full set of high-resolution aerial photographs from the Western Terminus to the Queens-Nassau line!  I told you to abide with patience.  They won't fit on this page, so I put them on a new page 11.

Mitch was out at his father's place and dug up a matte-finished picture of a Little League game being played at the site:

FM Ball Game 1
(Photo courtesy of M. Kaften, 21 May 01/28 Feb 04)
[Thumbnail image; click on the picture for larger image.]

Much more information about the Western Terminus area and the Fresh Meadows ball fields has been moved to, or amplified on, Queens Continuation Page 2.

In all of the above convolutions, I have tried to coordinate and update all the input and welcome corrections (of which there have already been quite a few); if I may have goofed, please bear with me.


To save space on this page, I refer you to the LIMP Index Page.


LEGACY

  What happens to all this when I DIE or (heaven forfend!) lose interest?  See LEGACY.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE

See Copyright Notice on primary home page.



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