S. Berliner, III's Long Island Rail Road MP41 Page keywords = MP41 LIRR Long Island Rail Road railroad steel passenger car electric motor

Updated:   10 Dec 2014; 16:20 ET
[Page created 07 Feb 2014

    original AT&T Worldnet Website begun 30 May 1996.]
URL:  http://sbiii.com/lirrmp41.html

S. Berliner, III
Consultant in Ultrasonic Processing
"changing materials with high-intensity sound"

[consultation is on a fee basis]

Technical and Historical Writer, Oral Historian
Popularizer of Science and Technology
Rail, Auto, Air, Ordnance, and Model Enthusiast
Light-weight Linguist, Lay Minister, and Putative Philosopher



note - The vast bulk of my massive Web presence (over 485 pages) had been hosted by AT&T's WorldNet service since 30 May 1996; they dropped WorldNet effective 31 Mar 2010 and I have been scrambling to transfer everything.  Everything's saved but all the links have to be changed, mostly by hand.  See my sbiii.com Transfer Page for any updates on this tedious process.


S. Berliner, III's

sbiii.com

Long Island Rail Road
MP41
Page

RAILROADING



You may wish to visit the main Railroad Page, et seq.,
as well as the main LIRR Page, et seq.



LIRR Class MP41
All-Steel Motorized Electric
Passenger Car
(1905)


[As-delivered photo of #1001 courtesy of A. Huneke - all rights reserved]
{Note small transit headlights)

PAGE INDEX   added.gif (09 Feb 2013)

LIRR Class MP41 All-Steel Motorized Electric Passenger Car (1905) Page,
        with 1906 and 1911 text, dimensioned drawings, and photographs.   new.gif (08 Feb 2014) and rev.gif (08 Feb 2014)
  Street Railway Journal, Vol. XXVIII, No. 6, 11 Aug 1906:
    All eleven full pages, 216-226,
    Drawings, Figures 1 through 7 and 10 and 11.
    Detailed sections of drawings, Figures 1, 4, 5, and 10.
    Photographs, Figures 8 and 9 and 12 through 16.
  NYCTA Drawings of the 1904 Gibbs IRT Subway Car.   added.gif (09 Dec 2014)
  Street Railway Journal, 1911, (in Traction Heritage, Vol. 2, No. 1) -
    New Steel Motor Cars of the Long Island Railroad {sic}.   added.gif (09 Dec 2014)


The Long Island Rail Road was the first railroad to switch over from wooden passenger cars to an all-steel fleet.  After tests of electrification were conducted and deemed successful, a version of the New York City IRT (Independent Rapid Transit) "Gibbs Car" was designed by George Gibbs and built with a 41' long passenger compartment@, thus Class MP41.

 [@ - Odd - the vestibule plan view (Figure 4, detail 4c) shows the inside length as 40' 0⅛"!
  See marked Figure 4cx below.]   rev.gif (14 Mar 2014)

Gibbs had been the designer of the cars, the first all-steel passenger cars, for the IRT and then acted as Chief Engineer for the LIRR's electrification.  The cars were intended for use on the LIRR's Atlantic Division, which includes some subway running and were to be interchangeable with the IRT cars.  As I understand it, they differed primarily in having low-platform stepwells in the vestibules and thus a shorter wheelbase to allow the trucks to swing inboard of the stepwells.

Electrification began operation in 1905 and W. N. Smith documented this contemporaneously in a series of articles in the Street Railway Journal.  Of particular interest to historians of traction and electric-motored main-line passenger service cars is an article in Vol. XXVIII, No. 6, dated August 11, 1906, appearing on pages 216 though 223, entitled:

THE ELECTRIC CAR EQUIPMENT OF THE LONG
ISLAND RAILROAD -I*

[The asterisk (*) is in the title and refers to two previous articles on LIRR electrification;
note however that the LIRR is properly the LI Rail Road!]

These cars were extensively modifed through the years, including the repacement of twin, small transit-style headlights with huge, boxed single RR-style headlights.  Some IRT Gibbs cars received deep fish-belly side sills to accomodate center doors but I don't think the LIRR MP41 cars ever did.  Spotting tip - MP41s had RECTANGULAR front windows; later MP54s had porthole front windows. To my knowledge, no one has been able to model the MP41 cars because of a lack of drawings and dimensional information.  Actually, the material has been available all along but seems somehow to have eluded knowledgeable LIRR modelers.  That is hereby rectified.  It came about thusly - after I was asked about the MP41 and queried most of my friends and aquaintances who should know, noted LIRR historian and modeler Mike Boland located and sent me a faint copy of a faint copy of the article noted above from our LIRR buddy Art Huneke (of the incredible aRRt's aRRchives fame).  Armed with a copy of the "real thing", I was then able to locate an original in the collections of Duke University's "David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library", in the American Newspaper Repository Collection - 1856-2004.  Obtaining high-resolution scans of all eleven pages, I then cropped them down to the basic page size (to conserve memory - this project is HUGE (160mB)!), created thumbnails, and have posted them herewith!

The way it works is this - all eleven pages, 216-226, are posted in sequence as thumbnails linked to enormous files of each page.  To further ease your reference, I also extracted the drawings, Figures 1 through 7 and 10 and 11.  If that's not enough for you, I also cropped out each detailed section of Figures 1, 4, 5, and 10, again shown as thumbnails linked to the individual cropped detail.&nbp; As icing on the cake, I then extracted the photographs, Figures 8 and 9 and 12 through 16, separately, as well.   rev.gif (09 Feb 2013)

Before I got the scans, I extracted some of the pertinent dimensions from Art's old copy and they are tabulated at the end of the page.

[I regret that there is some show-through and warping; it is unavoidable, as is the faint grey background tone.
I also rotated the images as best I could to orient their major axis vertically.
The most important thing is that the data is now readily available.]
  rev.gif (10 Feb 2013)


THE ELECTRIC CAR EQUIPMENT OF THE
LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD
(to whit the)
MP41
Electric Motor Car

SRJp216 SRJp217 SRJp218
(click on thumbnailed drawings for VERY MUCH larger images)
[Pages 216, 217, and 219]

SRJp219 SRJp220 SRJp221
(click on thumbnailed drawings for VERY MUCH larger images)
[Pages 219, 220, and 221]

SRJp222 SRJp223 SRJp224
(click on thumbnailed drawings for VERY MUCH larger images)
[Pages 222, 223, and 224]

SRJp225 SRJp226
(click on thumbnailed drawings for VERY MUCH larger images)
[Pages 225 and 226]

- - - * - - -

Now for the extracted drawings, Figures 1 through 7 and 10 and 11
    (Figures 8 and 9 and 12 through 16 are photographs), rotated where applicable:

SRJfig01
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 1 - General Framing Plan]
{Details are 1a - Elevation and 1b - Plan View}

SRJfig2
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 2 - Steel {Body} Bolsters]

SRJfig3
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 3 - Details of Body Corner Posts and Door Pocket]

SRJfig4
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 4 - Sections through End of Car, showing Sliding Door]
{Details are 4a - Side View (not a section), 4b - Vestibule Door End View,
and 4c - Half Plan View}

SRJfig5
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 5 - Floor Framing of Steel Motor Car]
{Detail is 5x - Section at E-F (cross-bracing)}

SRJfig6
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 6 - Sections of Double Post at Longitudinal Seat and of Single Post]

SRJfig7
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 7 - Plan and Logitudinal Section of Draft Rigging]

SRJfig10
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 10 - Details of Motor Truck]
{Details are 10a - Side View, 10b - Plan View, and 10c - Half End View}

SRJfig11
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure 11 - Section of Wheels and Axle on Motor Truck]

- - - * - - -

Lastly, here are the extracted details from the multi-image drawings, Figures 1, 4, 5, and 10, again shown as thumbnails linked to the individual cropped detail and rotated where applicable:

SRJfig01a
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure "1a" - General Framing Plan - Elevation View]

SRJfig01b
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "1b" - General Framing Plan - Plan View]

SRJfig01c
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "1c" - General Framing Plan - Cross Section View]

SRJfig04a
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure "4a" - End of Car, showing Sliding Door - Side View (not a section)]

SRJfig04b
(click on thumbnailed drawing for larger image)
[Figure "4b" - Sections through End of Car, showing Sliding Door - Vestibule Door End View]

SRJfig04c
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "4c" - Sections through End of Car, showing Sliding Door - Half Plan View]

SRJfig4cx
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "4cx" - Marked Section through End of Car, showing 40' 0⅛" Inside Length]
new.gif (14 Mar 2014)

SRJfig05x
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "5x" - Floor Framing of Steel Motor Car - Section at E-F (cross-bracing)]

SRJfig10a
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "10a" - Details of Motor Truck - Side View]

SRJfig10b
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "10b" - Details of Motor Truck - Plan View]

SRJfig10c
(not thumbnailed)
[Figure "10c" - Details of Motor Truck - Half End View]

- - - * - - -

As an added benefit for you, dear readers, I decided to extract the photographs, as well, Figures 8 and 9 and 12 through 16:   added.gif (09 Feb 2013)

SRJfig8
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 8 - Vestibule of Steel Motor Car]

SRJfig9
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 9 - Steel Motor Car]

SRJfig12
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 12 - Motor Truck]

SRJfig13
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 13 - Trailer Truck]

SRJfig14
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 14 - Third Rail Shoe, Fuse and Connections]

SRJfig15
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 15 - Adjustable Third Rail Shoe in Two Positions]

SRJfig16
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[Figure 16 - Cam in Third Rail for Changing Adjustable Shoe]

That should about do it; I've thought that several times already and the page keeps growing in leaps and bounds - we shall see.

- - - * - - -

MP41 Tabulated Dimensions


MP41 Dimensions:from Text
=========================

  Length over body corner posts - 41' 0
  Length over buffers - 51' 2"
  Length over drawbars - 51' 4"
  Width over side sills - 8' 6
  Width over sheathing - 8' 7"
  Width over window sils - 9' 0
  Width over platform floor - 8' 10"
  Height from underside of sill to top of plate - 7' 1"
  Height from underside of center sill to top of roof - 8' 9
  Height from top of rail to under side of sill
    at truck center (car light) - 3' 3-5/8"
  Height from top of rail to top of roof with car light - 12' 0


MP41 Dimensions from figures:
============================

Length over buffers - 51' 2".
Truck bolster centers - 34'.
Truck axle centers (wheelbase) - 6' 8".
Motor end truck bolster center in from end of buffer - 8' 7".
Motor end wheel diameter - 36".
Truck bolster overall width - 4' 8-1/8" {1/8" ???}.
Truck frame width - 6' 9".
Truck width overall (outside journal cover hinges) - 8' 1".

Height from railhead to underside of side sill
  (car light) - 3' 3".
Height from underside of side sill to
  underside of motor-end vestibule door frame - 6' 10".
Height from underside of motor-end vestibule floor plate to
  underside of motor-end vestibule door frame - 6' 3"
  (thus side sill is 6" deep).
Height from underside of side sill to belt line
  (bottom of window frames - 2' 10-7/8".
Width of motor-end vestibule door frame - 3' 2" ("???).
Window frame height - 3' 4".
Window frame width - 2' 4".
Width of wide pilaster (immediately inboard of truck and again
  two windows inboard) - 10".
  [No dimension is given for narrow pilaster width!
   However, the posts inside are 10" and 3", respectively.]
Center of inner wide pilaster to car centerline - 5' 10"

Carbody widths:
  At roof overlap - 8" 8".
  At belt-line water tables - 9' 0".
  Over letterboards - 8' 1".
  Over sills - 8' 6".
  Over sheathing - 8' 7"

Clerestory:
  Outer maximum width - 5' 4".
  Inside width = 4' 10".
  Inside height above knee of framing
    above letterboard - 17" {?}.

End radius (plan view) - 6'.
Roof ogive begins (from end) - 4' 6".
Roof ogive ends (above buffer) - 6' 6-7/8".

Inside vestibule double door width - 3' 8'.
Side vestibule door width - 3' 2".
Side vestibule door height - 6' 3-3/8{?}".
Side vestibule door window - 2' 4-1/8"W x 2' 7-1/8"H.
Door opening in from end of body - 22".
First side window starts in from door - 10".
Side windows equal height top and bottom.

NYCTA Drawings of the 1904 Gibbs IRT Subway Car:

notabene  As noted earlier, the LIRR MP41 cars were designed by George Gibbs as a version of the New York City IRT (Interborough Rapid Transit) "Gibbs Car", with a 41' long passenger compartment, thus Class MP41.  The two types of cars were basically identical (save for headlights and pilots on the LIRR car) so I am presenting here a set of NYCTA drawings of the Gibbs IRT cars, as later modified with center doors.  Although no MP41s are known to have survived, one modified IRT car, #3352, did; it is at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine, and has been restored to its pre-center-door configuration!  The center entrance in the IRT drawing was a later modification to the cars, originally this was another window/seating area.   added.gif (09 Dec 2014)

[based on information from Edward M. Koehler, Jr., noted LIRR and New York City transit historian]

Deemed "Seashore's most significant vehicle, No. 3352, was the first in the regular series built in 1905 at Berwick, Pennsylvania, by the American Car and Foundry Company.  Its performance would immediately render all wood framed vehicles obsolete."

Ed Koehler was kind enough to send me the following:

NYCTA Outline Drawing 6637 Subway Car (Modifed), Issue F, Oct-Dec 1936:

NYCTA6637F
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[NYCTA Drawing 6637F Gibbs Subway Car - Modified]

NYCTA Outline Drawing 14635 Subway Car M.U. D.C., Issue A, Oct-Dec 1936:

NYCTA14635A
(click on thumbnailed photo for larger image)
[NYCTA Drawing 14635A Gibbs Subway Car - M.U. D.C.]

Ed Koehler was also kind enough to send me the following:   added.gif (09 Dec 2014)

Street Railway Journal, 1911,
(in Traction Heritage, Vol. 2, No. 1):

  added.gif (09 Dec 2014)
SRJ/TH1911V2No1Pg14
[SRJ/TH Vol. 2, No,. 1, Page 14]
SRJ/TH1911V2No1Pg15
[SRJ/TH Vol. 2, No,. 1, Page 15]
SRJ/TH1911V2No1Pg16
[SRJ/TH Vol. 2, No,. 1, Page 16]
SRJ/TH1911V2No1Pg17
[SRJ/TH Vol. 2, No,. 1, Page 17]
 
(click on thumbnailed photos for much larger images)
 

APPRECIATION

It's sort of funny that I, of all people, should get so involved in passenger equipment, in which I have little or no interest in general.  I don't even live on Long Island any longer, although I still maintain a deep and abiding interest in the LIRR.  I first have to thank fellow Mass Bay RRE Gerry O'Regan, who talked to me after my 16 Jan 2014 PowerPoint presentation on "The Long Island Rail Road and Boston" [the LIRR was, after all, chartered in 1834 for the express (pun intended) purpose of connecting New York City and Beantown, via a cross-Sound ferry]; Gerry asked about MP41 dimensions and started all this going.  Next, thanks to George Chiasson, Jr., major NY transit historian, who is writing a series of articles about the LIRR for the NY Div. of the ERA, for which all this is fodder for the mill.  Next, of course, is thanks to Mike Boland, whose "faint copy of a faint copy" got me the particulars needed to track down the real thing, and Art Huneke, who had the old "faint copy" in his aRRchives.  Thanks also to the many friends who looked for me.  But most of all, we all must thank Tyler Gilmore of the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library, Duke University, who dug out the ancient bound volume with the correct issue of The Street Railway Journal, verified that it contained what I sought, and scanned it at high resolution for me!   rev (21 Feb 2014)

It's not at all funny, though, that,in the throes of excitement over the 1906 Street Railway Journal material, I completely forgot to post the NYCTA drawings and the 1911 Street Railway Journal material sent to me at the same time by Ed Koehler, Jr.!  My sincere apologies to Ed and to those of you readers for whom this additional information might really matter.   added.gif (09 Dec 2014)



[Cropped from late photo of #1111 courtesy of A. Huneke - all rights reserved]
(click on thumbnailed drawing for much larger image)

(Note large RR headlight; also note the stepwells - they slid outward
from the narrow IRT-sized car to reach normal LIRR platforms)



not-lt.gif - There is also a photograph of the MP41 in the LIRR Photo Album from the 1907 Convention Issue of the Electric Railway Journal. in turn in Traction Heritage, Vol. 4, No. 12.   added.gif (10 Dec 2014)



You may wish to visit the main Railroad Page, et seq.,
as well as the main LIRR Page, et seq.

LEGACY

  What happens to all this when I DIE or (heaven forfend!) lose interest?  See LEGACY.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE

See Copyright Notice on primary home page.



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Contact S. Berliner, III

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subjndex.gif frstpage.gif
of this series of LIRR pages.

To tour the Long Island railroads pages in sequence, the arrows take you from the LIRR index, to the first LIRR page, and on to LIRR continuation pages 2, and up, then to the other LI railroads page, and lastly to the LIRR Historical Society page.  Follow links to yard maps and related pages and sites.   This page is NOT in the tour sequence.


© Copyright S. Berliner, III - 2014  - all rights reserved.


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