S. Berliner, III's sbiii.com Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Page keywords = Berlinerwerke railroad model stories tall tales apocrypha PRR Pennsy Pensylvania

Updated:   28 Feb 2019; 14:30  ET
[Page converted 06 Mar 2010;

    original AT&T Worldnet Website begun 30 May 1996.]
Update info on the top on ALL pages for your convenience.

URL:  http://sbiii.com/bwrkapoc.html
[was at "home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/bwrkapoc.html"]

S. Berliner, III
Consultant in Ultrasonic Processing
"changing materials with high-intensity sound"

[consultation is on a fee basis]

Technical and Historical Writer, Oral Historian
Popularizer of Science and Technology
Rail, Auto, Air, Ordnance, and Model Enthusiast
Light-weight Linguist, Lay Minister, and Putative Philosopher

S. Berliner, III's


Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Page

S. Berliner, III's

Berlinerwerke Script



Apocrypha Page


BW Key

This page sponsored jointly (lots of 'em) by the
National Railway Hysterical Society
and the
National Muddle Railroad Association.

(Lighten up - they're spoofs!)

[See also the HO (1:87.1) Berlinerwerke saga or the Z (1:220) Berlinerwerke-Z saga
    and Berlinerwerke Guest Apocrypha (for taller tales?):
    CSXT AC100CBW and NSC CB100W-10 10,000 horsepower locos!
    Also, see the fabled BW DDP45 and other EMD engines EMD may never have dreamed of!]

Insanity doesn't run in my family, it just sort of dawdles along.

Because the Apocrypha indices exceeded the capacity of the individual pages, they are now presented in full on a separate Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Index; further, that main Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Index specifically includes:
    the Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Index,
    the Berlinerwerke RSR (Ruhnian State Railways) Apocrypha Index, and
    the Berlinerwerke Guest Apocrypha Index.

INDEX (partial)

On this page:
  Eerie Multiplex 2-4-6-8-10-12, "Old 9999".   rev (08 Aug 2017)
  PRR/BW DD3 Boxcab Triple-Power Diesel-Electric Locomotive 2-B+3-3+3-3+B-2.
  PRR Z6s Arctic 4-2-2.   rev (24 Feb 2016)
  Berliners Bessere Biffi und Biffisch (moved to page 0 on 11 Oct 2004).
  The Whitby Locomotive of the Incredible Dizzying Heights Railroad (from Jim Wells's fabulous Fantasonics site).

On Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Page 0:
  PRR/BW DD3 Boxcab Triple-Power Diesel-Electric Locomotive 2-B+3-3+3-3+B-2.
    (moved from main BW Apocrypha Page on 11 Oct 04).
  ALCo-GE-BW FPA-1 dual-powered B-C.
  Berliners Bessere Biffi und Biffisch (moved from main BW Apocrypha Page on 11 Oct 2004).
  Genesis Redivivus!.

On Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Page 1:
  GC&E #13 13-truck Shay!
    (moved to this page 23 Mar 03)
  4-Truck Heisler V8
  Steam Motorcars

On the Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Continuation Page 2:
  PRR V1 Rocky 4-14-2 {moved from preceding page 07 Mar 1999}.
  BW V2 Hiss Bomb.
  PRR Genesis Engine (unlikely!).
  PRR Centipede Engine 4-D-D-4 (even more unlikely, but oh, 'tis true, 'tis true!).
  "Big Hooker" double-ended 250-ton Tunnel Crane

and new pix of NYC 2x120-ton prototype.
  Super Garratt, BW-UP Garratt Boy, and BW-UP Bigger Boy.

On the Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Continuation Page 3:
  BW Climaxiii (moved here from page 1 on 19 Apr 2003)
  Double-Sided Shays.
  Piker and Oscar (moved from main BW Apocrypha page 12 Dec 2003 and again to page 3 on 18 Jan 2004).

On the Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Continuation Page 4:
  Soviet Class AA20 4-14-4!
  Parker Parodies - loco research by Karen Parker*
    (moved to BW Guest Apocrypha Page 2 on 16 Jan 04).
  Pennsy Multiplex - the fabled Wopsononock Class YNOT 2-4-6-8-10-12.   rev (08 Aug 2017)
  BW/Lima/C&O T-6 4-14-6 Doppelgänger.
  BW/PRR Zoo 4-14-6 Doppelgänger.
  BW-EMD F-45 and FP-45 Variations.

* - in addition to Karen's wild and wonderful fancies, you might also enjoy Andrea Luigi Meneghini's fantatsic Da Vinci Rails site (and see my version of his BR 53, the BR 35.3).

note - The vast bulk of my massive Web presence (over 485 pages) had been hosted by AT&T's WorldNet service since 30 May 1996; they dropped WorldNet effective 31 Mar 2010 and I had to scramble to transfer everything by then.  Everything's saved but all the links have to be changed, mostly by hand.  See my sbiii.com Transfer Page for any updates on this tedious process.

(unbelievable RR tales, pix, and hystery)

Warning2 - if you don't know the meaning of the word "apocrypha",
added (29 Oct 2016)

In light of the tremendous increase on spam, phishing, and false news now being reported daily,
I most earnestly ask any reader who does not know the meaning of the word "apocrypha" to learn it! added (16 Nov 2016)

Further, with the growing threat of DEEPFAKES created by AI (Artificial Intelligence),
I want to stress that my efforts herein are purely for fun, are the result of whatever real intelligence I may possess,
and are to be taken with a very large grain of salt - there; you have been warned! rev (28 Feb 2019)

Before I start, I should note that all this started with a secret project that is still unfinished and the next major development of the Berlinerwerke was their fabled DDP45:


For more about her and her family, see my EMD page.

Also, many of the images on succeeding pages are adapted from Joshua Moldover's Railroad Paint Shop; that site is active as of this writing (19 Nov 2005/14 Apr 2009) but has not been updated in many years and e-mail to some of his contributors can not be delivered.  If anyone knows how to contact them, please let me know or let them know that I can not reach them.

Two of the best perpetrators of similar apocrypha (atrocities?) are Karen Parker (Pixel Magic/Parker Parodies) and Richard Leonard [(Fantasy Steam Page) and (NYC Fantasy Steam).

BW Hist. Bulletin

2-4-6-8-10-12, "Old 9999"

Original Date:  22 Jan 1972        Effective Date:  30 Sep 1997 (ever so slightly revised)

The "O. D. Ball" Malllet Articklllated, Class Y-2b (or not 2b)

Another little-known engine originally developed shortly after the turn of the century by Wiener Berliner's Berlinerwerke was the ill-fated 2-4-6-8-10-12 Multiplex.  In 1891, the Eerie Railroad was begun, to bring coal from the northeastern corner of Pennsylvania across into New York at Matamoras and Port Jervis.  Eerie management quickly realized that existing drag-freight locomotives were no match for the severe grades and tight curves of the Shawangunk Mountains.  Accordingly, after consultation with the Norfolk & Western's Y-series design team, they contracted with the Pennsylvania Railroad's Altoona Works and the Berlinerwerke to develop the most powerful, flexible steam locomotive ever built.

Originally conceived by the Northfork & Wetson's Burgher Line [part of Commodore Vanderbuilt's Patroon System (you've gotta be a true New Yorker to understand all this)], as Class Y-12b, later Class Y-0z, for the Cape May-Lewes (Cape Henlopen) Chesapeake Bay Tunnel service, the design later was transferred to the Long Island Rail Road for the Orient Point-Old Lyme (Hatchett Point) Sound Bridge service.  These projected lines were never carried forward and the design was temporarily shelved.

Taking Anatole Mallet's articulation and compounding to an extreme, the Multiplex moved exhaust steam from the two inner sets of low-pressure cylinders out to its gargantuan front and rear cylinders (by the time the steam got out there, it was really exhausted).  In order to provide adequate steam to the cylinders, boiler pressure was increased to an unheard-of 350psi.  Twin stokers fed an enormous firebox and the rear set of drivers had to be located under the tender.  The boiler was an elongated version of the USRA design used on the N&W Y-series.

As experience with the Y-6b 2-8-8-2 on the N&W showed that an increase in weight on the front truck caused curved track to straighten out, a passenger-style two-axle pilot truck was originally intended to bear the weight of the huge front cylinders and to be guided through curves by its own single-axle pilot truck!  This design, the Eerie Triplllex, would have looked like this:

Eerie Multiplex Concept

However, the free-steaming boiler and tremendous pressure would have over whelmed the single pair of high-pressure cylinders and a fourth engine truck with two driver axles and its own cylinders was required.  The dual-guidance lead truck configuration was dropped, with near-fatal consequences as we will see later. Thus the forward pair of low-pressure cylinders was moved forward and a second pair of high-pressure cylinders moved in between, thusly:

Eerie Multiplex Final

{Standard graphics characters aren't available on the Net; I had to upload the figures!}

The Berlinerwerke's Cresson facilities were strained by the sheer complexity and size of this huge engine.  Endless hours were consumed in designing and fabricating the monster engine and tender.  Finally, the whole was complete and she was steamed and run up and down on the test track.  All tests were completed successfully and an appointment for delivery to the Eerie was made.  The big engine was named for famed Eerie engineer O. D. "Odie" Ball.

An undated early design drawing turned up; I have no idea when it was done (probably ca. 2000):

Eerie Multiplex dwg
(undated drawing from Berlinerwerke files - collection of S. Berliner, III - all rights reserved)

Unfortunately, the extreme length and flexibility of the Eerie Multiplex were its undoing.  After being towed dead to Altoona for further testing at the PRR's engine test facility and a shake-down run up to the Eerie headquarters plant at Matamoras, the big engine was run across to Port Jervis and put on its first revenue run.  Shortly into the Shawangunks very early on a dark, foggy dawn, it started around Corkscrew Curve, a famous loco killer.  No one on the Eerie had foreseen the obvious.  The engineer and fireman jumped clear just in time as they saw the gleam of the headlight on their own engine's pilot coming up behind them and were saved, but as the lead truck came all the way around the curve, the pilot collided with the tender, throwing the entire locomotive off the tracks and into the ravine below, where the huge boiler exploded under the tremendous pressure with enormous force!  The experiment was deemed a total failure and the wreckage was subsequently cut up on the spot and removed.  An exhaustive investigation into the accident exonerated the Berlinerwerke of any culpability; the Eerie had never advised them of the incredible curvature at the Corkscrew.

There are tales that persist in the Shawangunks to this day, however, that on certain moonlit nights, dedicated railfans can still spot the glint of steel moving down in that ravine and hear the anguished wail of a wet steam whistle in its death throes.

Now, it just so happened that the BW was not about to give up so easily on such a powerful loco design, so they teamed up with Altoona again and built a second 9999 for the Eerie, which by that time had eased Corkscrew Curve.  In order to get even more starting tractive effort, the BW team added a steam turbine booster under the rear of the tender, driving all six truck axles!  The only limit to what this beast could drag was the tensile strength of drawbars and the shear strength of coupler knuckles and knuckle pins.  Karen Parker, loco pictoriographer, dug around in the BW files and came up with this photo (only ever-so-slightly retouched by the redoubtable BW Art Dept.):

Eerie Multiplex
(11 Dec 2003 photo by K. Parker - all rights reserved)

[It turns out that there was a BW/Baldwin predecessor Multiplex (on the Virginian), see Apocrypha Page 6.  In addition, the Pennsy had its own Multilplex, the famed Wpsononock Class YNOT]   rev (07 Aug 2017)

Not only did the Pennsy upgrade its original Multiplex with a FIFTH engine in lieu of all those turbines, it also worked with the Eerie and the BW to do the same to the O. D. Ball:   added (07 Aug 2017)

Eerie Multiplex 2
(07 Aug 2017 photo by and © 2017 S. Berliner, III - all rights reserved)

Digging around in the BW files always disgorges the most unbelievable stuff!

    Diesel-Electric Locomotive 2-B+3-3+3-3+B-2
- moved to BW Apocrypha Continuation Page 0 on 11 Oct 2004.


PRR/BW Z6s Left Side
(Feb 1999 photo of 1987 model, both by SB,III)

Note that because there is only one main driver axle, the valve gear had to be reversed to run FORWARDS to the wheel, with links foreshortened appropriately.

[Article printed on front cover of NMRA/NER/SRTD CANNONBALL, Spring 1992, Vol. 22, No. 1.  Hub Div. threatened to reprint it, as did NRHS/STC SEMAPHORE.]


Z6s ARCTIC 4-2-2

(So called because it'd be a cold day before you'd ever see one)

PRR/BW Z6s from Cannonball
[Drawing by Bob Gatland{?} in Spring 1992 CANNONBALL (after SB,III sketch, below) -
WOW! - I never before noticed he'd left off the steam dome!]

This unusual engine is little known outside certain circles on Wrong Island.  In fact, it is so little known that even the vaunted Ron Zeal missed it entirely in his two books, "STEALIN' RAILS IN THE SUNRISE" and "PENNSY ERROR ON WRONG ISLAND".  Not even the famed Don Would or Edwin Alec Sander or the late Don Bawl ever got it on film; it isn't even mentioned in "I FORGOT PENNSY" or "The PENNSYLVANIA RAILRODE - 1940s -1950s".  Al Stouffer missed it in "PENNSY POOR" and "PENNSY POOR II".  Not even Rod Durkes, Charles Chainey, Jim Burkul, John Krowse, Vince Seafood, Hal Fullertown, nor Colonel Hal Cartoons nor Jim Boid snapped it.  No picture ever appeared in NRHS or RLHS journals nor in RAILFUN & RAILROAD, RAILROAD MUDDLE CRAFTSPERSON, TRANES, or MUDDLE RAILROADER or anywhere else before that anyone knows of.

Fabricated (and how!) by the Berlinerwerke in cooperation with the Pennsy's Altuna Works as a high-speed commuter engine for duty on Wrong Island, the acceleration of the 80"-drivered Arctic, with its enormous, superheated boiler and excellent draft, was so great that it often departed a station before it arrived!  No wonder it has been so little photographed or remembered.  It was one fast, if slippery and rough-riding, engine!  The official name of the WIRR train pulled most often by the Arctic was the CANNON BAWL (it WAS enough to make you cry), but it is best remembered as the Patchawg Squat.

The model was originally intended to be finished and shown on March 21, 1987, at a meet of the Sunrise Trail Division of the NMRA in honor of the great and famous Col. Cartoons, pulling a Walthers' Piker and Oscar.  Unfortunately, at Midnight on March 20, a screw holding one side of of the valve hanger snapped off in the zamac frame and, at 3 a. m. on March 21, a valve gear rivet fell out.  So, the model never got repainted and the cars never got finished (still true today) in time.  Nothing daunted by a night without sleep, the redoubtable crew of the Berlinerwerke slapped on a patch coat of paint (thank heaven for Polly-S) and did a lightning-fast lettering job so that the Sunrise Trail Division regulars could at long last see this fantastic example of the steam locomotive builder's art.

The Piker (a 21' long Pullman car) will be named the "COLONEL CARTOONS" in honor of the honored (?) publisher (he's a real sleeper) and the Oscar (a 21' long observation car) will be named the "SHORT HALL"in honor of his famed Wrong Island summer home.  The Hall is where the Colonel keeps a framed, autographed copy of Harry Truman's picture inscribed with the famous observation made by Franklin Delano Roosevelt when maddened model railroaders were demonstrating on the White House lawn for the establishment of National Model Railroad Month.  Reliable sources say that Roosevelt told Truman, "Give 'em Hal, Harry!".

As always, it is the pleasure of the Berlinerwerke to bring you models of the world's most unbelievable engines and rolling stock and to present little-known bits of history for your edification.

[Reproduced and updated 05 Aug 1991, from original copy of 21 Mar 1987]

From a bad xerocopy of my original (missing) sketch dated 31 Oct 1973.  It is annotated that I acquired (the late) Chick Bade's Penn Line E6s Atlantic (used) on 17 Jan 1987 and cut it up around 22 Feb 1987 and that I cut up the tender on 04 Mar 1987:

PRR/BW Z6s Original Sketch
(I hope to find the original)

It occurred to me that you might not really know the famed Walthers Piker or the lesser-renowned Oscar; they are (or were) Walthers's kit nos. 7812 and 7899, respectively, and I've moved coverage of them to BW Apocrypha page 4.

Oh, this is just incredible!  After all these years, I finally ran across an early Pennsy drawing of the Z6s:   new (24 Feb 2016)

PRR Z6s Drawing
[23 Feb 2016 drawing by and © 2016 S. Berliner, III - courtesy of the Berlinerwerke Archives - all rights reserved)]

It is simply amazing what turns up in the seemingly-inexhaustible BW archives (with enough effort).


Z6s ARCTIC 4-2-2


                                 Z6s             E6sb           K4s
                                Arctic         Atlantic       Pacific
                                4-2-2           4-4-2          4-6-2

Cylinders                       23½" x 26"     23½" x 26"     27" x 28"

Drivers, diameter               80"            80"            80"

Boiler, inside dia.             76-3/4"        76-3/4"        76-5/8"

Steam pressure                 205 lb.        205 lb.        205 lb.

Firebox                          6-3/8"       110-3/8" x 72" 126" x 80"

Flues & Tubes, diameter          5½"-2"-1½"     5½"-2"-1½"     5½"-2¼"-1½"
  "   "   "  , number            5½" - 36       5½" 36         5½" - 40
                                 2" - 242       2" - 242       2¼" - 236
                                 1½" - 144      1½" - 144      1½" - 160
  "   "   "  , length           11' 3"         15' 0"         19' 0"

Grate area                      41.3 sq. ft.   55.1 sq. ft.   70 sq. ft.

Water heating surface        2,169 sq. ft.  2,892 sq. ft.  4,050 sq. ft.

Superheating surface           605 sq. ft.    806 sq. ft.  1,215 sq. ft.

Wheel base, driving           0' 0"          7' 5"         13' 10"
  "    "  , tot. engine      22' 2½"        29' 7½" (9")   36' 2"
  "    "  ,  "     "         56' 5½"        63' 10½"       71' 10"
               & tender                    (64' 0")       (74' 8")

Tank capacity                 7,000 US gal.  7,000 US gal.  9,000 US gal.
Fuel    "                    18,000 lb.     25,000 lb.     35,000 lb.

Wt. on Rail, Engine Truck    57,200 lb.     55,200 lb.     53,200 lb.
"   "   "  , 1st Drivers     70,000 lb.     68,000 lb.     68,400 lb.
"   "   "  , 2nd Drivers       -            68,000 lb.     71,100 lb.
"   "   "  , 3rd Drivers       -             -             69,800 lb.
"   "   "  , All Drivers      70,000 lb.   136,000 lb.    209,300 lb.
"   "   "  , Trailer Truck    47,300 lb.    52,400 lb.     57,500 lb.
Wt. of Engine, Working Order 174,500 lb.   243,600 lb.    320,000 lb.
"   "    "   , Empty         145,500 lb.   215,000 lb.    284,500 lb.

Starting Tractive force       19,060 lb.    31,275 lb.    44,460 lb.

Factor of Adhesion             3.67          4.35          4.71

[Reproduced and updated 05 Aug 1991, from original copy of 21 Mar 1987]

Don't think there isn't any precedent for the Z6s Arctic, witness this PRR Z1 #0 ca. 1898:

PRR Z1 4-2-0
[Photo courtesy of Berlinerwerke Archives (and that alone should tell you something!)]

Oops!  That's a 4-2-0 (see the Big Cranes frontispiece); The Z1 proved too slippery so they stretched it and added a sand dome, plus a trailing axle to carry the extra weight.  Here's the actual 4-2-2, the PRR Z2 #01 ca. 1899 (18 Dec 2013):

PRR Z2 4-2-2
[Photo courtesy of Berlinerwerke Archives (and that alone should tell you something!)]

Actually, there were a number of relatively-modern American 4-2-2 locos in the late 19th Century (see Abdill - 20, 23, 70, and 161).

See my Model Railroad page 3 for a matching caboose.

At long last, a photo of the Z6s, taken at the Trenton (NJ) enginehouse in 1947, has surfaced from the cavernous files of the BW Art Dept.:   new.gif (27 Dec 06)

PRR/BW Z6s Photo
("Photo" courtesy of the BW Art Dept. - all rights reserved)
{"some" liberties were taken with an E6s photo from Gary Mittner; I trust he'll forgive me}

Speaking of 4-2-0s, I ran across the Strasburg RR's first steamer, the Norris-built Wm. Penn, which they acquired used in 1851:   added (28 Feb 2018)


The above photo post-dates her service on the SRR, when she was reworked with a trailing axle to make her more stable, especially when running in reverse, as shown below:


That made all the difference!

The Biffisch - moved to BW Apocrypha Continuation Page 0 on 11 Oct 2004.

The Whitby Locomotive -

The Incredible Dizzying Heights Railroad on Jim Wells's fabulous Fantasonics site noted below (and on all these pages) needed a more powerful loco than old #1 and the Fantasonics Engineering people turned to the BW for help.  Operating on the proverbial shoestring, the IDHRR could not afford new power but had #1's sisters, #2 and #3 available for trade in.  The BW's George Ersatz ran this by his brother, Ira (read subsequent pages for more about this amazing duo), the BW took in both old locos, combined them, and the result was second #2:

("Photos" courtesy of Fantasonics and the BW Art Dept. - all rights reserved)
{I have to assume Jim will forgive me}

Ohmygosh!  Ira went even further than I ever dreamed!  Diligent searching of the BW files, looking for the fabled Burdick Nightmare 0-2-0 of NMRA '60s-'70s fame, not only turned up Ira's version of the Burdick Nightmare 0-2-0 for the IDHRR BUT it also turned up Ira's incredible IDHRR Duplex Burdick Nightmare!  I'd never even heard of such but here they both are (and pictures never lie):

IDHRR#020 IDHRR#0220
(07 Apr 2005 "photos" courtesy of Fantasonics and the BW Art Dept. - all rights reserved)
{Guess what?  Jim not only forgave, but encouraged, me (foolish fellow)!}

What a fantastic find!  But, you ain't seen nuttin', yet!  Jim and Christie Wells started Fantasonics Engineering in 1980 as a design consulting group (The Enginears {sic}); that odd name caught my "ear".  I seemed to recall a reason why they called themselves that; sure enough, Ira had been at it long before:

(08 Apr 2005 "photo" courtesy of Fantasonics and the BW Art Dept. - all rights reserved)
{I warned Jim!}

"Ear, 'ear!  George had heard that there was something smoky going on in the IDHRR tunnels and let Ira loose on the problem.  I understand that the extreme height of the stack made the ears ineffective and that they were quickly removed.

Eeek!  That second #2 was far too rigid for some of the IDH curves, so Ira tried the old Santa Fé concept of a hinged boiler; that only allowed for right-hand curvature, so he substituted a double hinge:

IDHRR#2hinge IDHRR#2doublehinge
(08 Apr 2005 "photos" courtesy of Fantasonics and the BW Art Dept. - all rights reserved)
{Poor Jim!}

Because the Apocrypha indices exceeded the capacity of the individual pages, they are now presented in full on a separate Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Index; further, that main Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Index specifically includes:
    the Berlinerwerke Apocrypha Index,
    the Berlinerwerke RSR (Ruhnian State Railways) Apocrypha Index, and
    the Berlinerwerke Guest Apocrypha Index.   rev (25 Jan 2011)

[See also the HO (1:87.1) Berlinerwerke saga or the Z (1:220) Berlinerwerke-Z saga.]

I always wondered at the incredibly tight security at the Berlinerwerke during WWII; now it can be told!  See, for starters, the wild site of Sig Case, Rails to the Stars - Steam in Space, files from the National Aeronautics and Steam Administration and the tie-in to the Berlinerwerke V1 on Apocrypha Page 2.

See also the HO (1:87.1) Berlinerwerke saga or the Z (1:220) Berlinerwerke-Z saga
  and Berlinerwerke Guest Apocrypha (for taller tales?):
    CSXT AC100CBW and NSC CB100W-10 10,000 horsepower locos!
  Also, see the fabled BW DDP45 and other EMD engines EMD may never have dreamed of!

If you like this sort of nonsense, take a gander at Jim Wells' incredible

[The AW NUTS Magazine site of the A.W. N.U.T.S. Garden Railway Society is no longer available.]

If you are air-minded (take that as you choose), you must see the Lion Air site!  I'd be Lion if I didn't warn you to keep your tongue in your cheek on this one!

Take your tongue out of your cheek and visit D. Dickens' The Patiala State Monorail Tramway site; whooie (and it's for real)!

of this series of Berlinerwerke Apocrypha pages.


  What happens to all this when I DIE or (heaven forfend!) lose interest?  See LEGACY.


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